Wob
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6 February 2016 - 14:03 EST
http://www.twitch.tv/wob_ns/v/41423379
ANALYSIS: S8 D1 R1 Final
9 February 2016 - 14:44 EST
more. I think this kind of analyses is useful, even if I disagree with some points.
10 February 2016 - 03:17 EST
Analysis: got rolled
Wob
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10 February 2016 - 08:41 EST
Definitely write what you disagree with and we might get some good debate going
10 February 2016 - 14:55 EST
Well, I'll be real for a second here. There was no disrespect towards Chams. So you're wrong there. At least not from me.
In fact, our marine round strat was based off of a very strong ns1 style strategy. But it revolves around extremely good execution and a couple key mistakes caused a cascading effect that led us to losing that round. It's a low eco strat that when executed properly, you keep the aliens on 2-3 RTs the entire game until you win, pumping upgrades behind it.
HOWEVER, if you don't get nodes down with the first or second wave, you're done for. It's aggressive.. but I actually prefer it to the "turtling" that goes on sometimes with marines on 5-6 RTs vs aliens on 4-5 RTs.
We just stayed in it because... well, it's the finals.
Examples of much better execution: (aka not losing the first sg'er to gorge spit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxI8qDrdNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp-YQ1kulys
In fact, our marine round strat was based off of a very strong ns1 style strategy. But it revolves around extremely good execution and a couple key mistakes caused a cascading effect that led us to losing that round. It's a low eco strat that when executed properly, you keep the aliens on 2-3 RTs the entire game until you win, pumping upgrades behind it.
HOWEVER, if you don't get nodes down with the first or second wave, you're done for. It's aggressive.. but I actually prefer it to the "turtling" that goes on sometimes with marines on 5-6 RTs vs aliens on 4-5 RTs.
We just stayed in it because... well, it's the finals.
Examples of much better execution: (aka not losing the first sg'er to gorge spit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxI8qDrdNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp-YQ1kulys
schu
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10 February 2016 - 17:58 EST
I'm going to be honest here then. SpookerZ has some members that believe they are the best. I said it to a few members from bad mannered. SpookerZ RELIES on their accuracies. And yes, you guys have great aimers, great life forms. But your rotations are non-existant. You guys slowly rotate to where you needed to be 15 seconds ago. I called this out and i got flamed for it.
I may not be the best aimer or the best life form. I may not be the smartest player either, but what I do have is experience playing against the best teams in the world. We focused more on teamwork than aim. We lose rounds, yea. But we consistently do what we need to do.
I may not be the best aimer or the best life form. I may not be the smartest player either, but what I do have is experience playing against the best teams in the world. We focused more on teamwork than aim. We lose rounds, yea. But we consistently do what we need to do.
10 February 2016 - 18:31 EST
Flamed?
Don't recall this. On the contrary I've never viewed myself as best at anything. I am highly self critical.
Don't recall this. On the contrary I've never viewed myself as best at anything. I am highly self critical.
10 February 2016 - 19:08 EST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxI8qDrdNE&t=1m20s
"guys fight them with the whip on the ramp"
*5 aliens die*
"oh."
10 February 2016 - 22:22 EST
As I told you the other day, I just disagree with the sentiment that you think SpookerZ didn't respect us or were trying to "cheese" us the whole finals.
Then a couple other minor disagrements, but a LOT of useful and insightful observations that allow us to learn from it. Overall 9/10.
11 February 2016 - 05:05 EST
I read schuster's post with the braveheart movie main theme.
11 February 2016 - 06:07 EST
If anything at all, with my return to the "scene".. I criticized (not openly but to myself) the lack of fade teamplay that I saw in the finals of DIY vs Chams. I saw lots of flashing and fades 1 by 1 ing and not focusing targets properly.
I tried to work with Hypie on bm and carry that into SpookerZ on landing our swipes together on targets and tearing groups apart one marine at a time.
example:
https://youtu.be/8AFim6sLJOs?t=41s
The focus from me was teamplay, not "accuracies" .. while it is important to land your swipes and shots.. we were never a team that was like "alright guys, let's aimbot this shit, fuck teamplay everyone yolo solo plays" .. this was never intended or discussed.
This sort of teamplay fell apart over the course of the month as I played less due to IRL and our alien rounds were so poor in the finals that we didn't really get to fade in a timely fashion. (and my egg got sniped due to an overlook on my part in where I decided to egg)
Just because you don't achieve good teamplay, doesn't mean you were attempting to "cheese" or you were "disrespecting" your opponent.
I tried to work with Hypie on bm and carry that into SpookerZ on landing our swipes together on targets and tearing groups apart one marine at a time.
example:
https://youtu.be/8AFim6sLJOs?t=41s
The focus from me was teamplay, not "accuracies" .. while it is important to land your swipes and shots.. we were never a team that was like "alright guys, let's aimbot this shit, fuck teamplay everyone yolo solo plays" .. this was never intended or discussed.
This sort of teamplay fell apart over the course of the month as I played less due to IRL and our alien rounds were so poor in the finals that we didn't really get to fade in a timely fashion. (and my egg got sniped due to an overlook on my part in where I decided to egg)
Just because you don't achieve good teamplay, doesn't mean you were attempting to "cheese" or you were "disrespecting" your opponent.
Wob
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11 February 2016 - 12:06 EST
I feel like deviating from the standard meta can only be for one of two reasons.
1. You feel underprepared and want to shock and awe them
2. You feel OP and want to finish quickly and take shortcuts.
Spookerz were top of the league and playing some ridiculously high % team acc meaning they can frag lifeforms ridiculously easily (E.G. lamb w0 killing lome fade).
I can not understand the reasoning for trying to catch Lucky Chams off guard if it is not for one of these two reasons. I also make this accusation of disrespect in context of having watched all marine rounds where we see 1-1 JPs, and fast PGs, both also deviations from "standard" meta despite falling behind 2-0 on veil. Why would you continue to deviate from meta when losing a final?
I can understand changing meta mid-game to a 4-5 man SG push on hives to break a turtle scenario or to try and clamber back from a losing position because big risk big reward. But this doesn't explain taking a big risk of deviating from meta from the offset.
It is also apparent from a lack of discipline to make sensible plays http://www.twitch.tv/gold_n/v/43331299t?=15m30s Golden gets caught, fairs, then lamb solos???? He thinks he can take them on? Then golden PHASES THROUGH A GRIND? THEN LAMB GOES AGAIN AND DIES DESPITE ROTATORS COMING TO SHOOT OFF THE GATE? http://www.twitch.tv/gold_n/v/43331299t?=16m40s THEN LAMB DOES THE SAME THING ONE MINUTE LATER (3 deaths 1 min lol)? http://www.twitch.tv/gold_n/v/43331299t?=17m35s LAMB PHASES AGAIN INTO GRIND DESPITE ROTATE FROM C12?
WTF come on... Solo marines thinking they can take on 3 lifeforms around a corner or even jumping through a grind gate lmfao...
I do also say that it's not just a lack of respect, but fatigue, and also a snowball effect from the failed SG push, but I think that those 3 things tie in really easily into each other and you get a bit of a swiss cheese effect where everything lines up and spookerz just fell a part as a consequence.
1. You feel underprepared and want to shock and awe them
2. You feel OP and want to finish quickly and take shortcuts.
Spookerz were top of the league and playing some ridiculously high % team acc meaning they can frag lifeforms ridiculously easily (E.G. lamb w0 killing lome fade).
I can not understand the reasoning for trying to catch Lucky Chams off guard if it is not for one of these two reasons. I also make this accusation of disrespect in context of having watched all marine rounds where we see 1-1 JPs, and fast PGs, both also deviations from "standard" meta despite falling behind 2-0 on veil. Why would you continue to deviate from meta when losing a final?
I can understand changing meta mid-game to a 4-5 man SG push on hives to break a turtle scenario or to try and clamber back from a losing position because big risk big reward. But this doesn't explain taking a big risk of deviating from meta from the offset.
It is also apparent from a lack of discipline to make sensible plays http://www.twitch.tv/gold_n/v/43331299t?=15m30s Golden gets caught, fairs, then lamb solos???? He thinks he can take them on? Then golden PHASES THROUGH A GRIND? THEN LAMB GOES AGAIN AND DIES DESPITE ROTATORS COMING TO SHOOT OFF THE GATE? http://www.twitch.tv/gold_n/v/43331299t?=16m40s THEN LAMB DOES THE SAME THING ONE MINUTE LATER (3 deaths 1 min lol)? http://www.twitch.tv/gold_n/v/43331299t?=17m35s LAMB PHASES AGAIN INTO GRIND DESPITE ROTATE FROM C12?
WTF come on... Solo marines thinking they can take on 3 lifeforms around a corner or even jumping through a grind gate lmfao...
I do also say that it's not just a lack of respect, but fatigue, and also a snowball effect from the failed SG push, but I think that those 3 things tie in really easily into each other and you get a bit of a swiss cheese effect where everything lines up and spookerz just fell a part as a consequence.
11 February 2016 - 16:09 EST
There was a lot of lack of discipline from SpookerZ tbh. When you get to the round on Descent you'll really notice it. It became really easy to exploit. From the start when they tried to relocate, Locklear split from his teammates which allowed us to turn it into a 3v5 with a Gorge. Then throughout the rest of the game after they established phase gates, they would take 3 people off gates to pressure one of our naturals, so we would just crush the opposite natural where they had a gate at. They triple pressure Observation --> We clear Gravity Gate and almost Hydroanalysis (We end up taking every RT on the left side of the map while still holding Monorail). Then they 4-push Plaza so we clear Hydro gate. They respond by 3-pushing Hydro for another gate, so we crush the solo Marine defending Observation. It's a lot of "Okay, they're leaving one or MAYBE 2 Marines to defend their Phasegates, lets go clear it."
11 February 2016 - 16:49 EST
I would add that much as the standard meta for Nadal is to hit at Federer's backhand, he'll stick it to his forehand when he doesn't expect it, and that wouldn't come under those two.
Definitely looked like point 1 in the finals tho...
11 February 2016 - 17:47 EST
You can feel that way all you want (and that's a very limited perspective imo), but the reality here is... I was a pretty big fan of NS1 style play. Many times in order to influence my own play and decision making I would go back and look at demos from that time.
I influenced the team into trying out this strategy because I believed we had the potential to execute it similar to 9L and MANY other teams did in NS1. Veil is a map where it can very easily become alien favored. This aggressive strategy combats that very simply but as I said we made mistakes in execution.
I didn't feel under prepared and I didn't feel OP. I just enjoyed this style of play and team agreed to try it.
Who cares? You think we took that into consideration for how we intended to play? One of the first things I did when I came back into the league was W1 LMG lome's fade in a match. You know what my serious analysis of that was and what I told the team? We can't rely on "hero plays" like this. We should try to improve the teamwork.
While it's good that certain players are mechanically capable of achieving these frags.. it doesn't win games. This is known.
Tram: Spring offered 1-1 jetpacks or play standard. I said, let's go 1-1 jetpacks. Want to know why? I really enjoy jetpack/hmg gameplay. I had been practicing it in gathers/scrims and wherever possible. Another NS1 style play was that a good HMG/JP player could combat multiple fades extremely well. Unfortunately, though I asked, Spring didn't research HMGs so I was forced to buy a SG in some of the sieges.
Descent: I think not one person cared about the result of that round. We already considered the match a loss. At least I did.
That's a really big assumption Wob. No one *seriously* thinks that they can take on 3 lifeforms by themselves or save a grinder by themselves. They are doing it to buy time for other people to come into position. Even if it's a mistake at those moments, it's the intention.. not the result.
Don't confuse lack of discipline with carelessness. Lambo was very unmotivated to play NS2. It was a battle to even get him to care a little bit and play the game.
Lack of care tbh. At least from me. Ofc it's easier to exploit a team that literally just doesn't care anymore about the round result. When you're already mentally defeated, the carelessness sets in, and the mistakes flow like a waterfall.
Wob
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11 February 2016 - 19:35 EST
If you chose to deviate from meta not because you want to shock and surprise and not because you thought you were OP then it kind of says you were just being stupid and not respecting the competition because you weren't playing to win, you were playing for "fun" (whatever that means when you disregard winning). It was a stupid strat if you weren't going for the two options and it was poor execution. If it worked it still would have been a stupid strat and stupid justification imo.
If you don't take into consideration your strengths then you're not playing to your strengths purposefully and you're not doing your best to win. If you're not doing your best you're either disrespecting your opponent or the competition.
It's fine for you to go 1-1 JPs if you enjoy it, but it still doesn't take away the stupidity when it comes to trying to win. You did win that round, but it was still a stupid win. You have the strength to go toe-to-toe with the best with those accuracies and if you get 2-2 in 7 minutes you'll dominate. I'm glad for you that you decided to shake things up for fun, but it does add to my point that you took winning as a second priority.
Descent comment again just shows that you disrespected the competition. The game is not over until best of 7 rounds are played. Giving up is showing you do not care.
Poor discipline to repeat the same crazy plays like 4 times in a row is careless and a mistake and I expected so much better from you. Tbh I seriously thought you showed signs of being a div 2 side throughout some of these games. You didn't take it seriously, you made bad mistakes, and you were tired. All these factors contributed to your loss, I'm not saying the disrespect was the only reason.
Also having to "battle" to get a player to care a little bit and play in the finals of a season is literally the perfect example of not showing respect for your opponent or the tournament as a whole. You don't want to be there, you under perform, and you lose. This is what I'm arguing.
Spookerz lost the game before it started.
If you don't take into consideration your strengths then you're not playing to your strengths purposefully and you're not doing your best to win. If you're not doing your best you're either disrespecting your opponent or the competition.
It's fine for you to go 1-1 JPs if you enjoy it, but it still doesn't take away the stupidity when it comes to trying to win. You did win that round, but it was still a stupid win. You have the strength to go toe-to-toe with the best with those accuracies and if you get 2-2 in 7 minutes you'll dominate. I'm glad for you that you decided to shake things up for fun, but it does add to my point that you took winning as a second priority.
Descent comment again just shows that you disrespected the competition. The game is not over until best of 7 rounds are played. Giving up is showing you do not care.
Poor discipline to repeat the same crazy plays like 4 times in a row is careless and a mistake and I expected so much better from you. Tbh I seriously thought you showed signs of being a div 2 side throughout some of these games. You didn't take it seriously, you made bad mistakes, and you were tired. All these factors contributed to your loss, I'm not saying the disrespect was the only reason.
Also having to "battle" to get a player to care a little bit and play in the finals of a season is literally the perfect example of not showing respect for your opponent or the tournament as a whole. You don't want to be there, you under perform, and you lose. This is what I'm arguing.
Spookerz lost the game before it started.
11 February 2016 - 20:26 EST
I thought about continuing to explain and give your post another equally thought out reply but I just can't seem to get my points across to you since I'm clearly just stupid in the eyes of the "brain of ns2". If you put down your condescending tone and stopped acting the part of the "arrogant know it all" maybe you'd understand where I'm coming from.
To attempt such a strong strategy only shows the utmost respect towards your opponent and is playing to your team's strength. (Hypie is typically an excellent shotgunner)
Maybe you should ask Tane how well one good shotgunner (like himself) that early could control a game in his day.
From Grissi's NS1 Doc:
"Fana: There was also a 2nd way to play jet pack rush. Marines then planned long game with jp-hmg vs. 2-hive aliens and went into the late game. The idea of was that jp-hmg would gradually overpower alien advanced lifeforms while a few jp-sgs would deny alien rts, eventually res-starving the aliens, culminating in a hive rush when the aliens were short of advanced lifeforms."
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TNdpEVSgMToY99qNY-3a0D-PbhxryZ9Z1FoNhDeYV-c/edit
It's one thing to point out our mistakes... I'm fine with that for the best interest of others trying to learn.
However, publicly defaming us and focusing on making us look like we were just out there to disrespect our opponent is completely wrong. I came to play and have fun and at no point did I feel like I was playing in a manner that was aimed at disrespecting my opponent. I just got careless as things started to look grim.
Additionally, you said how I should've been more in the back .. essentially baiting my teammates.. instead of holding an angle that allows me to chip skulks BEFORE they get into combat. I don't agree with this style of play.
I basically agree with 90% of everything else though.
If you want to look at disrespect, look at lome's bm during the entire series. That is a show of disrespect.
To attempt such a strong strategy only shows the utmost respect towards your opponent and is playing to your team's strength. (Hypie is typically an excellent shotgunner)
Maybe you should ask Tane how well one good shotgunner (like himself) that early could control a game in his day.
From Grissi's NS1 Doc:
"Fana: There was also a 2nd way to play jet pack rush. Marines then planned long game with jp-hmg vs. 2-hive aliens and went into the late game. The idea of was that jp-hmg would gradually overpower alien advanced lifeforms while a few jp-sgs would deny alien rts, eventually res-starving the aliens, culminating in a hive rush when the aliens were short of advanced lifeforms."
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TNdpEVSgMToY99qNY-3a0D-PbhxryZ9Z1FoNhDeYV-c/edit
It's one thing to point out our mistakes... I'm fine with that for the best interest of others trying to learn.
However, publicly defaming us and focusing on making us look like we were just out there to disrespect our opponent is completely wrong. I came to play and have fun and at no point did I feel like I was playing in a manner that was aimed at disrespecting my opponent. I just got careless as things started to look grim.
Additionally, you said how I should've been more in the back .. essentially baiting my teammates.. instead of holding an angle that allows me to chip skulks BEFORE they get into combat. I don't agree with this style of play.
I basically agree with 90% of everything else though.
If you want to look at disrespect, look at lome's bm during the entire series. That is a show of disrespect.
11 February 2016 - 23:15 EST
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG8FOWF6su0&list=PLNegsWy7ShhkVttEu_jidOZQCrfZ3KLBo
SHAZBOT!!
6 hours of drilling vs 0 seconds of drilling, who cared more?
SHAZBOT!!
Can't wait for R2 analysis Wob!
12 February 2016 - 00:04 EST
I don't even know why I'm dignifying obvious trolling from an admin with a reply but there's a difference between compiling funny videos of fails over the course of ns and bm'ing openly in all chat during a live match. I even have myself in there.
If you really believe that we sat there and drilled for 6 hours and weren't afk or just messing around in the server for long periods of time then you're delusional lmao.
Delusion: distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
If you really believe that we sat there and drilled for 6 hours and weren't afk or just messing around in the server for long periods of time then you're delusional lmao.
Delusion: distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
12 February 2016 - 01:13 EST
https://media.giphy.com/media/ftXvsSyRzKXXG/giphy-facebook_s.jpg
12 February 2016 - 01:55 EST
I don't agree with this. In scrims, if I am on a team of less skill than the team I am playing, I won't ever try anything out of the ordinary. This is because I know we need to work on the standard and get better before we can do stupid silly shit. However, in a Finals match, I definitely would try this.
In the finals, if I am on a team that is stronger than the opponent, I wouldn't deviate from standard meta much at all. This is because I don't want to risk losing a round to a cheese. I think there are far more reasons to deviate and contexts in which these reasons would change.
I just don't think this is the case at all. Here's what I think, but again, I don't know for sure:
Golden was on my team last season. He knows me and my team decently well. I think he was also aware my team was scrimming a lot and taking the finals seriously, so we were showing that we were not going to be a pushover. I think he ALSO thought that his team wasn't going to good enough to beat us in standard play. I think this is because we had scrims with SpookerZ and we soundly won. Also I heard some SpookerZ scrims against Bubba's team were rough losses. We would scrim bubba's team and have little issues. I think they didn't think they'd beat us "standard".
So what is their plan? Throw them off with plays they're not ready for!! Seems logical to me. Honestly those who know me know that this is my biggest weakness. If I haven't seen certain plays or strategies, and the other team has practiced them with good execution, I will be caught with my pants down, and likely desynchronize my team. Then we all snowball into losing the round.
So this shotgun play. This is something they practiced before our match and came VERY close to working. The jetpacks. That caught my off guard, and we lost. They executed that one better. Shit like these plays will take rounds off me, it's why Bubba strats get rounds off me. Even phone's arc rush in a gather had me going "damn".
12 February 2016 - 01:57 EST
I think that had a LOT to do with silly things like you describe.
12 February 2016 - 02:00 EST
General strategy for most competitive sports:
1. Play standard meta and conservative to build up a solid W-L ratio an get your team into the playoffs
2. Once in playoffs, take risks and chances to win the game, because it's all or nothing. Crush the foundation from the other team by throwing them something they've never seen before and don't know how to handle.
1. Play standard meta and conservative to build up a solid W-L ratio an get your team into the playoffs
2. Once in playoffs, take risks and chances to win the game, because it's all or nothing. Crush the foundation from the other team by throwing them something they've never seen before and don't know how to handle.
12 February 2016 - 02:07 EST
He did say he did it for the shock and surprise, right?
So the rest of the paragraph and following paragraph is null?
12 February 2016 - 02:12 EST
/thread
12 February 2016 - 02:13 EST
Again, I don't think they felt the same way you do here. I think they felt they might not be able to beat us head to head fully standard, especially at a score of 2-0 in our favor. They chose jetpacks 1-1 to throw a wildcard at us and it worked, really well actually.
In the finals, the win is the ONLY thing that matters, and people will come up with VERY interesting ways to get it. At least I hope they do, otherwise matches are boring.
Someone in chat during the finals said "wow nice to see ns2 hasn't changed. Everyone's afraid to try new things". Except SpookerZ was doing JUST that. Just like Bubba's team is.
12 February 2016 - 02:14 EST
Here's where I agree with you. This part sucks the most, and I am sure most of SpookerZ agrees as well. Once debbie downer drags the morale and concentration of the whole team down. No one likes Haters. Stop being EMO lambo!
12 February 2016 - 02:16 EST
Why do I always have the most assholes and BM players on my team?
Come on Lome, you're representing the ENSL now too!
Also on this note, if any team disrespected the other team last season, it was mine. We gave 0 shits about our season match. That's why we tried dumb shit like exos and I lost to base rushes (twice).
12 February 2016 - 02:23 EST
Honestly though, your general analysis is really great, informative, and spot on, Wob! We need more shit like this. You have a lot of points that get me thinking.
Of course it's fine to theorize and make assumptions, as long as you don't use that assumption as the foundation of your analysis.
The only mistake you made, in my opinion, was making an assumption on the intentions of one of the teams and then holding onto that assumption and building your analysis around it.
I have no idea if I worded that properly.
Of course it's fine to theorize and make assumptions, as long as you don't use that assumption as the foundation of your analysis.
The only mistake you made, in my opinion, was making an assumption on the intentions of one of the teams and then holding onto that assumption and building your analysis around it.
I have no idea if I worded that properly.
12 February 2016 - 05:49 EST