6 January 2015 - 15:29 EST
lmao
Allowing removed viewmodels (contined)
7 January 2015 - 01:55 EST
Your reply's give me cancer
skyice
- Posts
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- United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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- 29 November 2012
7 January 2015 - 02:32 EST
Swalk, i can see that removing view models could give me a better view of my enemy,
But it looks crap to be running around with no view models and i would never dream of playing like it because it looks so stupid and takes my fantasy of being a female space ranger/alien dog away.
If my enemy is ok with playing his game like this to try to gain a slight advantage against me than lol at him and i dont care.
Try hard comes to mind... and you just said that you play with them removed so you don't have any disadvantage which reflects on your character also. Your the same skill lvl and i dont think you having view models removed will make you noticeably better.
Come play some div 3 and enjoy life.
But it looks crap to be running around with no view models and i would never dream of playing like it because it looks so stupid and takes my fantasy of being a female space ranger/alien dog away.
If my enemy is ok with playing his game like this to try to gain a slight advantage against me than lol at him and i dont care.
Try hard comes to mind... and you just said that you play with them removed so you don't have any disadvantage which reflects on your character also. Your the same skill lvl and i dont think you having view models removed will make you noticeably better.
Come play some div 3 and enjoy life.
7 January 2015 - 09:27 EST
Honestly, after you tell me: "Viewmodels are the same as white walls and pink skulks...", "Viewmodel blocks 75% of your screen and you can't see where the marine is strafing..." and "Any decent player can overcome having no viewmodels" I have no clue what your point is that you're trying to make and if you're trolling or not.
If you call viewmodels and whitewalls or pink skulks the same then I'm honestly baffled..
Are you talking about lower div players not having "enough" skill to overcome no viewmodels? Is it that our current prem div is complete shit for not realising how big this change is, because obviously from your information it was the prem div that decided this? Is it that you have something against the current admin, Zefram? Because right now you're pulling "facts" (if you can call them that) out of nowhere and call everyone who doesn't agree with you a retard passive agressively.
Well done, you have given yourself a very good reputation in this community and I hope you keep doing what you're doing.
On a side note, please for the love of god force player models so I can use a black crosshair ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
If you call viewmodels and whitewalls or pink skulks the same then I'm honestly baffled..
Are you talking about lower div players not having "enough" skill to overcome no viewmodels? Is it that our current prem div is complete shit for not realising how big this change is, because obviously from your information it was the prem div that decided this? Is it that you have something against the current admin, Zefram? Because right now you're pulling "facts" (if you can call them that) out of nowhere and call everyone who doesn't agree with you a retard passive agressively.
Well done, you have given yourself a very good reputation in this community and I hope you keep doing what you're doing.
On a side note, please for the love of god force player models so I can use a black crosshair ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
7 January 2015 - 10:20 EST
How to shoot skulks:
(With viewmodels)
1. Take out your LMG
2. Ignore the viewmodel and put your crosshair on the skulk.
3. Click... repeat till dead.
(Without viewmodels)
1. Take out your LMG
2. Ignore the lack of viewmodels and put your crosshair on the skulk.
3. Click... repeat till dead.
TL;DR bads will still have problems with these steps no matter what is on their screen. You still have to play Dora the Explorer and click on shit. Ez. Viewmodels can't make you aim better.
@spring put a white 1px border around said black crosshair. ez bro. ez
(With viewmodels)
1. Take out your LMG
2. Ignore the viewmodel and put your crosshair on the skulk.
3. Click... repeat till dead.
(Without viewmodels)
1. Take out your LMG
2. Ignore the lack of viewmodels and put your crosshair on the skulk.
3. Click... repeat till dead.
TL;DR bads will still have problems with these steps no matter what is on their screen. You still have to play Dora the Explorer and click on shit. Ez. Viewmodels can't make you aim better.
@spring put a white 1px border around said black crosshair. ez bro. ez
7 January 2015 - 14:37 EST
Trademark, I fear I am here to do this again, because you lack basic knowledge just as you're trying to insult someone and call them stupid. How to apostrophe:
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-You%27re-and-Your
Your mistake was the improper use of the word "reply's". You meant to use "replies" because the latter means "multiple reply". What you used means "belongs to the reply". Which makes no sense in english.
You grammar is giving me cancer.
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-You%27re-and-Your
Your mistake was the improper use of the word "reply's". You meant to use "replies" because the latter means "multiple reply". What you used means "belongs to the reply". Which makes no sense in english.
You grammar is giving me cancer.
7 January 2015 - 14:47 EST
So is this thread more about the topic of viewmodels providing a distinct advantage and further separating vanilla from the competitive scene, or are we here to just call swalk stupid?
Regardless of it being a personal preference, not having viewmodels OBJECTIVELY provides players with a better field of vision. You cannot deny that. Having a better field of vision is an advantage (correct me if i'm wrong). This is fact
Yes, anyone can take advantage of this, AND, since it's available to both marine AND alien, it should not affect A v M balance significantly. This is fact
The difference from player A using viewmodels and Player A not using viewmodels is subjective, and may or may not make player A better, however it is possible that it will provide them with an advantage with respect to themselves. Summary: viewmodel change allows a player to be 0-n% (with an upper limit that has not been measured) better than they used to be. It does not make them worse, because if it does, they turn it off. This is fact.
Viewmodels is another hurdle for a vanilla player to experiment with when coming to competitive scene. Just like crosshairs, just like FOV adjustments, hitsounds, and alien vision. This is fact.
Now with those facts pointed out, is the community okay with all of this? Seems like yes.
The argument boils down to whether or not customized NS2 experiences should be allowed, and to what degree are they allowed OR should everyone be forced to have the same AV, FOV, hitsounds, viewmodels, crosshairs, hud display, gamma, volume, etc so we can truly measure who is best at this game.
Regardless of it being a personal preference, not having viewmodels OBJECTIVELY provides players with a better field of vision. You cannot deny that. Having a better field of vision is an advantage (correct me if i'm wrong). This is fact
Yes, anyone can take advantage of this, AND, since it's available to both marine AND alien, it should not affect A v M balance significantly. This is fact
The difference from player A using viewmodels and Player A not using viewmodels is subjective, and may or may not make player A better, however it is possible that it will provide them with an advantage with respect to themselves. Summary: viewmodel change allows a player to be 0-n% (with an upper limit that has not been measured) better than they used to be. It does not make them worse, because if it does, they turn it off. This is fact.
Viewmodels is another hurdle for a vanilla player to experiment with when coming to competitive scene. Just like crosshairs, just like FOV adjustments, hitsounds, and alien vision. This is fact.
Now with those facts pointed out, is the community okay with all of this? Seems like yes.
The argument boils down to whether or not customized NS2 experiences should be allowed, and to what degree are they allowed OR should everyone be forced to have the same AV, FOV, hitsounds, viewmodels, crosshairs, hud display, gamma, volume, etc so we can truly measure who is best at this game.
7 January 2015 - 15:57 EST
That comment is a little bit misleading simba...
Viewmodels improve the FOV and only in certain situations is that helpful. Especially as you can see marines when parasited through your viewmodel already. The increased FOV is a tradeoff between knowing when you are scanned/cloaked and not having a visual indicator of bites. Hardly as simple as you are making it out to be.
7 January 2015 - 17:04 EST
As far as I know, it's harder to find parasited Marines on the field than not. It helps to get less stuff on your screen, and so makes easier to watch out your opponent (Marines or Aliens), it's been more efficient in my person as Alien. I don't know whether it's such an advantage this said, you get an icon when you're scanned but you don't know whenever you are cloaked or not (you still need to think about that as Alien, but most of the time, you do know either you got Veil or stand near a Shade, don't you?).
I actually do approve everything that Simba says (I'm even myself surprised). And thanks for the link, it's gonna be very helpful for my own English.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
8 January 2015 - 12:21 EST
I should post on this thread
9 January 2015 - 00:22 EST
I am not denying there is a tradeoff. I just stated viewmodels increases Field of vision, which provides an advantage.
Also there is a scan indicator for if you don't use alien viewmodels, but I guess the point I was trying to give is that turning view models off can't make you a worse player (because if it does, you turn it back on).
9 January 2015 - 04:28 EST
Fair enough, I agree with you.
Viewmodels can't make you worse and it won't make you better. /thread
9 January 2015 - 08:33 EST
Wrong
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
11 January 2015 - 12:55 EST
The fact that it takes away from immersion is hardly an argument to allow this thing.
Well, I for one care about a levelled playing field and I think the admins should too. Yes, I like to compete against good players to test my abilities, it gives me more excitement than playing against players that I already know I have the upper hand against. I'd rather be the underdog in terms of skill, because when you finally win in those situations it is a much more rewarding experience and I don't really care about losing. I play for the fun of competeting at a levelled playing field. I already tried dropping the level of play and trying to just have fun, don't get me wrong. I had lots of fun playing with starke fisherboot last season. But the will to compete was missing in the team, it mostly relied on trolling :P
I don't think that it is display of bad character to desire competetion and a levelled playing field.
Not caring about having a levelled playing field, that on the other hand I see as a display of bad character, whether you go for the advantages or not.
Again these lies and you talk about being misleading? There is currently no such thing as a significant trade off to removing the viewmodels.
- The scan icon is displayed on your screen when you are being scanned, very noticable if you bothered enabling the option in NS2+. If cloaked/enzyme icons aren't already implemented i reckon it is just a matter of time before those icons will be displayed as well to show you these effects, not that those matter as much as scan does anyway, I still haven't had the need for them(weren't used by comms).
- The need for a visual indicator when you bite is an illusion made by playing with them on for a long time. The bite sound does the exact same thing.
- You don't always have marines parasited when fighting them in melee combat, especially when you have group fights. That argument is dull.
This leaves the pure advantage(no tradeoffs) of having the extra view, gaining the ability to see the part of the gameworld that would otherwise be blocked by your viewmodel. Hence why it should never have been allowed.
It's funny to dig into these arguments of why it should be allowed just to see that they all have nothing solid to them. The trade offs seems made-up, just to get it accepted and allowed, the most significant ones have already been adressed in ns2+(health/adrenaline/ammo counter/scan HUD). Shows some integrity*sarcasm* of those that put those arguments out and some ignorance of those that believe it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
11 January 2015 - 13:15 EST
Is that too hard for you guys to get a normal debate? Without showing any compension or hate toward the others who disagree with your point? I'm gonna close this thread if you cannot keep it quiet.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
11 January 2015 - 13:16 EST
"This leaves the pure advantage(no tradeoffs) of having the extra view, gaining the ability to see the part of the gameworld that would otherwise be blocked by your viewmodel. Hence why it should never have been allowed."
Crosshairs, Alien vision, Field of view. Are there any tradeoffs to them? I'd love to hear your thoughts about these too.
Crosshairs, Alien vision, Field of view. Are there any tradeoffs to them? I'd love to hear your thoughts about these too.
11 January 2015 - 15:06 EST
Easy, let me explain those to you.
Crosshairs do not make make your visual surroundings clearer. The default crosshairs are already transparent, from what I remember. So I don't find that you can edit your crosshair to gain any advantage whatsoever. It would be another story if the default crosshair was big and clunky and took viewable space from you. But then again, if that was the case. I think the default crosshair would be so resented by everyone that it would still be generally accepted to modify your crosshair, simply because the default one would be directly terrible(being big and clunky).
Alien vision does impose an advantage by giving you a clearer vision, but is an integral part of the game and is available to everyone in-game by pressing a single button. Much like flashlight, it just makes it easier to see the part of the gameworld already available for you to view.
Field of view does give you more peripherial vision, but it has a significant drawback if you increase the value. At medium/long distances you will have more trouble hitting your targets precisely, simply because they are smaller. This mainly affects shooting(rifle), spiking and parasiting.
To compare; the viewmodels are also an integral part of the game, much like wall textures and playermodels. Removing them requires a mod and modified consistency check on the server. Removing them gives you more vision and there are no significant trade offs.
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
11 January 2015 - 16:06 EST
The distances in the game aren't that big that you're at a disadvantage cranking up the FOV, unless you play with 7000dpi and 10 sensitivity you shouldn't have any trouble seeing/hitting enemies far away. It is not a "significant drawback", it's just preference.
In the vanilla consistency check viewmodels changes are allowed. They are not consistency checked, so you can have invisible viewmodels without the server running NS2+.
In the vanilla consistency check viewmodels changes are allowed. They are not consistency checked, so you can have invisible viewmodels without the server running NS2+.
11 January 2015 - 17:55 EST
Vanilla alien vision is pretty much useless in most situations though, it really only helps in pitch black rooms. Should custom alien vision be banned too? You could use all the same arguments, it makes it easier to see, it's a mod, not everyone knows you can use custom AV, custom AV gives you advantage over someone that only uses vanilla AV etc. etc.
11 January 2015 - 18:18 EST
Yes it's a preference whether you want to have an easier time killing your enemies at distance or as they come closer to you. The distances in NS2 are long enough to be affected by FOV changes, I play with pretty sta ndard sensitivity settings, 180 degrees for about 20cm mouse movement and I can definitely feel the difference(and you can see it visually also if you bother taking screenshots in different FOVs). From the top of the slopes on crossroads to the buttom in summit(not the longest distance in the game, but fairly common medium/long distance), is enough to make a high FOV a disadvantage by making it harder to hit targets at that distance, targets are smaller and therefore harder to hit.
Strange, I don't seem able to remove them on most servers. Maybe people block them intentionally because it's a bad idea to let people edit any kind of model?
I would agree with you if we were simply free to edit our own alien visions, but the only allowed custom alien vision are the two(?) ones included in NS2+ and I don't think any of them are really any more advantageous than the other/default ones. From my knowledge all of the allowed alien visions highlight targets, just in different colours.
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
18 January 2015 - 17:44 EST
21 January 2015 - 05:08 EST
I have tested playin without viewmodels and turned them on again very quickly because I did not like the tradeoffs. Though, I felt some advantages as an alien on some situations. Maybe after some time I may have addapted to the new "look and feel". Also I did not like it because of the missing immersion (what skyice said)
Talking about if there are tradeoffs or improovements and which effect is stronger for every player has shown unproductive and did only lead to rage and personal insults on this threat. Sometimes you just have to accept that someone has a different opinion and that you cant change it however good based your points are. Why not agree that some players gain (or feel having) an advantage and some not?
Personaly removing the viewmodel does not feel as a cheat against others for me because it is available for all.
It is not the same as wallhacking, aimbots etc. which you can only anable by hacking the gamefiles.
That not everyone knows about it does not change that. There are lots of informations about ns2 play which can improove the personal gameplay that are not available for everyone, but can be gained if you start looking for them (what Heracles meant with his definition of skill). Like watching tutorials, casts, having training sessions or gathers with experienced players. There you might end up talking about mouse settings and changing the alien vision too but that is only a part of it!
I think these settings should remain to be changeable for the personal likings. Not everyone should be forced to play with the same settings. How you set up your gear is part of the competition! Look at motorsports for example: There are some parameters that the teams have to deal with but everyone is trying to find the best setting for his car that fits perfectly to the driver, because not every setting works with every driver.
However, I decided to not remove the viewmodels and stop testing it because it is just not available on every sever. I dont want to end up deciding where to play only if this setting is enabled or not.
A setting is useless for me if it is not available all the time. It's like changing a gear car with an automatic randomly on every ride: Not a big deal and you could addapt, but no, I dont like it :-)
Talking about if there are tradeoffs or improovements and which effect is stronger for every player has shown unproductive and did only lead to rage and personal insults on this threat. Sometimes you just have to accept that someone has a different opinion and that you cant change it however good based your points are. Why not agree that some players gain (or feel having) an advantage and some not?
Personaly removing the viewmodel does not feel as a cheat against others for me because it is available for all.
It is not the same as wallhacking, aimbots etc. which you can only anable by hacking the gamefiles.
That not everyone knows about it does not change that. There are lots of informations about ns2 play which can improove the personal gameplay that are not available for everyone, but can be gained if you start looking for them (what Heracles meant with his definition of skill). Like watching tutorials, casts, having training sessions or gathers with experienced players. There you might end up talking about mouse settings and changing the alien vision too but that is only a part of it!
I think these settings should remain to be changeable for the personal likings. Not everyone should be forced to play with the same settings. How you set up your gear is part of the competition! Look at motorsports for example: There are some parameters that the teams have to deal with but everyone is trying to find the best setting for his car that fits perfectly to the driver, because not every setting works with every driver.
However, I decided to not remove the viewmodels and stop testing it because it is just not available on every sever. I dont want to end up deciding where to play only if this setting is enabled or not.
A setting is useless for me if it is not available all the time. It's like changing a gear car with an automatic randomly on every ride: Not a big deal and you could addapt, but no, I dont like it :-)
22 January 2015 - 11:14 EST
Mega posts a perfect screenshot, if you can't see the marine in the middle of that (even when he is jumping) then your crosshair placement is just bad, not the viewmodels obscurring your path.
What I mean is if your enemy jumps and your crosshair is like that (looking horizontal to the floor) then no **** you're gonna lose him, but you're NEVER supposed to do that.
It has nothing to do with viewmodels but rather your personal skill at the game and where your crosshair should be positioned.
I can agree that it gives advantages in moments like on that picture but comeon.. If you bite by looking at the top or bottom of your screen instead of making sure your crosshair is on/around the marine then it's your own fault not the viewmodels.
What I mean is if your enemy jumps and your crosshair is like that (looking horizontal to the floor) then no **** you're gonna lose him, but you're NEVER supposed to do that.
It has nothing to do with viewmodels but rather your personal skill at the game and where your crosshair should be positioned.
I can agree that it gives advantages in moments like on that picture but comeon.. If you bite by looking at the top or bottom of your screen instead of making sure your crosshair is on/around the marine then it's your own fault not the viewmodels.
23 January 2015 - 15:33 EST
First serious post Spring, this acutally is the key to ending this discussion. Although I partially agree with swalk on this matter - with viewmodels being an advantage in certain situations and with these advantages unarguably being very different from fov or alien vision or whatever was addressed in this thread - I never posted in this thread, simply because it was getting out of hand with all the false accusations and insults and so on.
After all this is not about the values of the nsl community or whatever you are on about swalk, this is about what the community wants. You say disabled viewmodels should be banned because you think they are too similar to white walls and pink skulks. This is a good point in my opinion. But you can definitely see THE WHOLE community disagrees with you, why would you keep argueing when nobody is on your side? I personally do not care about this at all as it is not a major advantage in any way. That is why i never posted in this thread (apart from the whole rediculous drama that evolved of course). Apparently nobody in the nsl has a problem with the viewmodel matter, so why would you keep repeating the same points aaaaaallll the time when being countered with the same arguments again and again and again? You won't achieve anything with this. For as long as you keep doing this, you will just keep killing the last bit of respect some people might have for you.
IMO Spring's point is good enough to close this discussion now
After all this is not about the values of the nsl community or whatever you are on about swalk, this is about what the community wants. You say disabled viewmodels should be banned because you think they are too similar to white walls and pink skulks. This is a good point in my opinion. But you can definitely see THE WHOLE community disagrees with you, why would you keep argueing when nobody is on your side? I personally do not care about this at all as it is not a major advantage in any way. That is why i never posted in this thread (apart from the whole rediculous drama that evolved of course). Apparently nobody in the nsl has a problem with the viewmodel matter, so why would you keep repeating the same points aaaaaallll the time when being countered with the same arguments again and again and again? You won't achieve anything with this. For as long as you keep doing this, you will just keep killing the last bit of respect some people might have for you.
IMO Spring's point is good enough to close this discussion now
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
24 January 2015 - 15:46 EST
View models off -Can see more of the screen that should be hidden by models - Advantage
View models on - Can't see areas of the screen that should be hidden by models - Normal, no advantage
Personally, I think it's bullshit just for that. I say they should be enforced.
View models on - Can't see areas of the screen that should be hidden by models - Normal, no advantage
Personally, I think it's bullshit just for that. I say they should be enforced.
24 January 2015 - 15:55 EST
Guis type swalkmode in console in-game and be amazed, the viewmodel wlll be spinning all over your screen making it evenly blocked on all sides so this is fixed now :D
1 February 2015 - 18:25 EST
The point is that it gives an advantage to players that are not able always track their targets with viewmodels turned on. In other words, rewarding bad aim by giving extra vision. You only need your crosshair on the marine the moment you bite, during the bite-cooldown you won't need your crosshair on the marine at all, you just need to track his movements, try to dodge and stay in range for the next bite.
Wait, the WHOLE community disagrees, yet you partially agree and several others agree that viewmodels give an advantage and should be enforced? Those statements kind of contradict eachother. To me it seems that only a the ones that helped decide and "test" it are arguing to keep viewmodels an option to disable, those are the most vocal ones arguing that it is fine and it should stay. No wonder. Just look at this thread and the previous one at the UWE forums, I might be the most vocal about having removed viewmodels banned again, but I am not alone, not by any stretch, in my viewpoints about viewmodels. Lots of people don't want to post because they don't want any "drama" or people judging them, exactly like you. I'm just the opposite of you, I don't care what people think, I just post MY opinions and I don't need anyones approval for that. Freedom of speech, right?
Pretty childish of whoever made that. Although a great example of how to make the viewmodels even more annoying/obscuring than in vanilla. Really displays the huge contrast to removing them completely.
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
1 February 2015 - 22:01 EST
FTFY.
Try Goldenmode next. It's my second favorite now.
(seriously though, how did you not laugh at Swalkmode?)
2 February 2015 - 05:31 EST
I thought swalkmode was hilarious but what is this goldenmode, like wtf a holographic planet in front of your screen :D
2 February 2015 - 06:26 EST
GOD PLS DO NOT TRY OUT GOLDEONMODE ON MARINE SIDE. It just broke my ears, some super loud sound bug appeared and almost killed me
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png